LonelyCache

I personally enjoy these stats. I know they cause a lot of angst, but all competition will. I like how the old system worked and think that keeping that idea with a small adjustment (leave out all logs prior to the publishing date)

I also like the idea of FTF (or First Day Found) points accumulating until a second find (really, a second date found after the publishing date). I think this could create some fun strategies as to when people decide to get a cache.

For example. Say a cache has been out for 3 months (90 points using a P/D system) and AZRT goes out and makes the first find on 1/18/12. The FTF/FDF points would be 90. Now, say the cache is ignored for 3 more months. With this system, the FTF/FDF points would accumulate to 180. Then on 4/18/12, Corfman Clan finds it. This log date stops the FTF/FDF points accumulation, giving AZRT 180 FTF points and 90 CPs (or LCPs ).

The strategy come in when trying to keep another cacher from racking up tons of FTF/FDF points. This would make people start WANTING to grab caches second faster I think. All cachers that found the cache on the First Date would split the accumulated FTF/FDF points. In the above example, if JCanyoneer was with AZRT (or even just missed the actual FTF by an hour ), they each would end up getting 90 FTF/FDF points once Corfman Clan made the find in April.

I just heard that in Perth, Australia, folks put an FTF card in each cache so there is no doubt who the FTF is.

I like the idea of FTF, but the excitement level is is disproportionate to the accuracy.

Would a valid FTF on the day of publication have a value of zero?

I would prefer a separate FTF leader board that can show the accumulated points of all the FTFers and track that activity while at the same time the points are not added to the overall points of the individual cachers or to any overall backcountry calculation. As it stands in my opinion it favors people who started caching earlier and were around to get the points of the older backcountry caches that have also accumulated more points in time. If anything I would be for giving double points for the last to find...that should make for some interesting competition

MooseMob wrote:Would a valid FTF on the day of publication have a value of zero?

Not how I see it? All logs on the Publish date would be considered FTF/FDF. So the total accumulated FTF/FDF points would be divided by the number of loggers on that first day.

If a Placement Team member now decides to log his finds on the Publish date, instead of the date he was actually there, he would just be adding 1 more number to divide all the accumulated FTF/FDF points by . I see this as slightly innaccurate, but I have heard that it is more typical for PT member to log on the actual date he signed the log than the publish date-hence, I propose to disregard all logs prior to publishing time-date. A valid FTF on the day of publication would would have his portion of the accumulated FTF/FDF points according to the number of logs. In urban type caches, I don't see this as being a problem, but in true backcountry caches, a PT member's log on the Publish date would screw this up it the valid FTF was day, months or years later.

Here are some examples to help explain my thoughts on this point system:

Example 1-Urban cache: 10 people grab a cache on the Publish date (no one logs a PT log since I have never seen this done on an Urban Cache-could happen though). No one find the cache for 5 more days. Now the accumulated FTF/FDF points for the cache would be 5 points if using 1 point/day or 1.37 points if using 100 points/year. Each of the 10 people would each get .5 points (1P/D) or .137 points (100P/Y). The CPs for the cache would be a completely separate calculation. 5P/D / 11 = .45CPs or 1.37P/Y / 11 = .125 CPs.

Example 2-LonelyCache: 4 Jeepers grab a Cache that has been out for 1 month. 2 Placement Team members log the cache on the "typical" date that the log was placed, say 2 days prior to the publishing date. 2 people find the cache 2 months after the FTF/FDF date. Now the accumulated FTF/FDF points for the cache would be 90 points if using 1 point/day or 25 points if using 100 points/year. Each of the 4 Jeepers would get 22.5 points (1P/D) or 7.5 points (100P/Y). The CPs for the cache would be a completely separate calculation. 90P/D / 6 = 15CPs or 25P/Y / 6 = 4.17 CPs. A PT member would get no points, FTF/FDF nor CPs as logs prior to Publishing date would not count in the calculations. If a PT member now decides to log caches on the publish date instead of the "typical" date that they signed the log, he would get all the accumulated FTF/FDF points-I think most would consider this change from the current "typical" logging rationale a conscious effort to cheat the LCP system.

Example 3-LonelyCache: Same scenario as Example 3, but instead of the 2 STF guys going out 2 months later, they go out 1 day later. Now, the Accumulating FTF/FDF points stop at 1 month and 1 day instead of at 3 months.
This is where I think it would be fun to have a board and be able to see who is accumulating FTF/FDF points because no one has gone out to grab the STF. This would make that Second Find more valuable in trying to stop a fellow cacher's FTF/FDF point accumulation. I think this could give more power to other cachers in controlling a board. Say that Corfman Clan and AZRT are 1 and 2 respectively on the FTF/FDF board and AZRT is about to take #1 from Corfman because AZRT has a FTF/FDF log that no one else has grabbed for a second day, Corfman Clan would be able to stop that point accumulation by running out and find that cache, keeping his #1 spot.

jcanyoneer wrote:I personally enjoy these stats. I know they cause a lot of angst, but all competition will. I like how the old system worked and think that keeping that idea with a small adjustment (leave out all logs prior to the publishing date)

I see the logic in this for FTF tracking, but it wouldn't really make sense for regular point tracking. I have personally logged several caches on the day they were placed. I like to keep track of the day I was actually at the cache. If the FTF points were to ignore all logs prior to the publish date, I would be fine with that. I don't personally have any attachment to the FTF points, but I know others do. I would continue to log my caches the same way & there would not be any complaints of 'stolen' FTF points. Where the problem comes in is if the logs prior to the publish date aren't counted as 'finds' in the whole scheme of things. If that's the case, I would still continue to log the caches on the day I was there, but I probably wouldn't follow the site. If I was there when the cache was placed & I signed the log, regardless of the publish date, it should count as a find and be worth the same amount of points as everyone else who found the same cache. There are some caches where you hike all day, just to place 1 cache with someone else. If I went through the effort to do the hike, but another cacher places the cache instead of me, it doesn't seem fair that I would have to come back another day to count it as a find.

Pale Raven wrote:

jcanyoneer wrote:I personally enjoy these stats. I know they cause a lot of angst, but all competition will. I like how the old system worked and think that keeping that idea with a small adjustment (leave out all logs prior to the publishing date)

I see the logic in this for FTF tracking, but it wouldn't really make sense for regular point tracking...

I agree, if we exclude find logs before the published date, it would only be for FTF board.

jcanyoneer wrote:I also like the idea of FTF (or First Day Found) points

I REALLY like the idea of changing it from "FTF" to "FDF." It always bugged me that often someone could have lots of FTF points and never have gotten the FTF, all you do is make sure you find it (or log it) the same day the person who really worked for the FTF logs it and the site says you're an FTF king.

MooseMob wrote:I just heard that in Perth, Australia, folks put an FTF card in each cache so there is no doubt who the FTF is.

There are a few in my area who cheat hardcore to claim FTF, I could see them stealing the card and saying it wasn't there and claiming it. Or making copies of cards to swap out, etc.

In my opinion there is no way on a normal cache to ever say for sure who was FTF, any dishonest person can come in and dispute it.

That is why the idea of FDF is exciting, FTF implies one person, and implies winning. FDF simply implies that you like to go get caches right after they come out.

I wouls suggest that Loneley Caching FTF be claimed independantly of the Geocaching.com site. This means that a Lonely Cacher needs to make a specific effort to 'claim' the FTF. DGP would make it's best guess on who the FTF was. If DGP was incorrect in it's guess, as usually the case, then DGP folks would get bent out of shape and call non DGP cachers "cheaters".

Folks, DGP should ***NOT*** tell geocaching.com how to run their web site or tell other cachers how to log their caches.

Please... keep it in house.

BTW: if a person doesn't say FTF in their log, then they are not claiming FTF. Please don't accuse them of 'cheating' when they didn't claim it.

This means that a Lonely Cacher needs to make a specific effort to 'claim' the FTF. DGP would make it's best guess on who the FTF was. If DGP was incorrect in it's guess, as usually the case, then DGP folks would get bent out of shape and call non DGP cachers "cheaters".

I think it would be easier if the LCP site did not have to search for who was claiming FTF/FDF. Use First Day Found. No reason to get your panties in a bunch if you share the Accumlated FDF points with everyone else that signed the log the same day you grabbed the FTF-I mean, really? On a Lonely Cache, what are the chances? There should only really be issues if, the people that currently log their Placement Team "finds" on the date they were there, change their mind and don't care about the cache-to-cache distance anymore and start logging on the day it was published.

Well, if they decide to log the day the FTF really found it or the day after that, this would change things a bit too. The day OF the FTF would give the PT logger a portion (1/2, 1/3, 1/n where n=the number of loggers that day) of the accumulating FDF points. If PT loggers decided that now they want to log the AFTER the FTF, then this would stop the FDF Accumlation falsely...

The issue is that people will log differently than you or I do (not right or wrong), and my hunch says that people will change how they log after the new LCP site sets it parameters. I just say, don't worry about it. Keep working towards your personal goals.

It would be nice to have a way to adjust your personal view of the boards by leaving out cachers that you feel "cheat" to get to the high ranks on that board. I think if LCP Admin then could see a majority of people blocking a certain cacher from their board view, he could then investigate what is going on-I see this as being WAAAAAY down the road as I assume LCPAdmin wants this to be as "set up and let go" and leave it alone as it can be.

True, the chances are slim of the first finders on the same day as the second finders (note: exception) on Lonely Caches, but one needs to remember that this site is expected to track *all* caches, not just the lonely [backcountry] ones. Lonely caches just get a few more points in the scoring system.

I'm in favor of using FDF. It is closest to what DGP did anyway, and it really isn't that important to me. I see the FTF as a personal stat anyway. I keep track just for my own information. As to the placement team logs, I've only been involved that way a few times. Didn't log finds on any of them. My personal feeling is that I didn't find them, so I don't log them. YMMV.

My head is swimming with all the possibilities for tabulating FTF or FDF. My simple mind and experience favors the FDF method. ZK

The DGP FTF numbers by region was actually pretty fun to watch. I really never cared before, but after the DGP came along, several of us began to go after those in a competitive way. This added to the fun of chasing a leader board. Right now...I can't tell you w/i 100 of how many actual FTFs I actually have...but when the DGP was up I could tell you how many FDFs I had in each region I was interested in. I had other cachers tell me they were gunning for my #1 position...and I was gunning for other's #1 position.

I don't think there would be ANY way to determine FTF via GC data queries. Thus let's just keep the DGP FDF point split method.

Bottom line: I'm all for keeping FDF counts and creating leader boards just for the fun of having one more position to strive for.

FTF lists are pretty low on my wish list for this site, but I certainly have no problem with them being a part of the site.

I think I'm in the minority but, I say leave the first boards off this site.

A lot of geocachers are challenged by the chance to get and FTF. For one thing, the real FTF is often harder to get than subsequent ones. The FTFr has to deal with bad coordinates - anyone hiked 2 miles to find a cacher had transposed numbers on the coordinates and ended up with a DNF, only to have the next guy bag the FTF. The FTFr has no footprints to follow, no broken limbs on a tree or bush, no trampled grass to help him, no hints from previous logs and finders. This extra effort should be worth something.

Giving recognition for FTF's also alters the caching strategy. In the days before I was involved with DGP, once a new cache was logged I often wouldn't make the effort to go after it on the first day because the FTF had already been bagged. Once DGP came along and I saw that everyone who found a cache on the first day got partial credit, I started going after them even once an FTF was logged.

My vote is for tracking FTFs!

If this site has anything to do with FTF, then I would recommend that folks have some sort of ability to 'claim' FTF on this site. This would keep the bickering over here where the stats are kept, not on other sites.

That said, this would also mean there only be 'one' technical FTF. There can be multiple FDF, but only one FTF.

FTF is about compitition, get the insta-notify, race out the door.
FDF is about availability. Retired, lounge a bit drinking coffee, notice a new cache in driving distance, stop for lunch, grab the cache at dusk, get the same points as the person that raced out at dawn.

now.. back to the trenches