Site Update Jan. 18, 2013

[Corfman Clan]

Hi,

The big change this release is the continuation of adding ads to the site. I attempted to place ads where they are either on the side or in places where if you want to see more on the page, you would be paging down anyway. The idea is to enhance the site and not detract from your experience. I hope I've mostly accomplished that. At this time, adding the ads is essentially done. I may add some to the search results page and another to the Geocache page with the found logs but that will most likely be it. We had some start up expenses along with some ongoing expenses maintaining the site, and the hope is that employing the ads will cover them.

Here's an itemized list of the changes:

• The GeocacherPage will default to the logged in user. That means that you don't need to specify the id field to go to your own GeocachePage.
• The link to your GeocacherPage at the top right, will no longer add your id to the url since it is no longer needed.
• Modified the styles and such in preparation to adding some knowledge book articles. This is just preparation, but hopefully some real knowledge book articles will be coming soon.
• Fixed some spelling errors on the About page.
• Hopefully fixed interim problem with the menu. Everything worked great for me in testing, but I've seen problems since this is on production. I'm hoping it was just a browser cache issue, but if you see issues with the menu, please let me know here and I'll back the change out. Change backed out.
• Added banner ad below the fifth row of most lists, along with after the last row. This will be the most visible change. This seemed like good locations since if you want to see past the fifth row, you most likely would be paging down anyway. In-list banner ad removed.
• Added banner ad below the geocacher summary and the quick links on the Geocacher page.
• Added banner ad below the loneliest list on the home page and the Region page.
• Added banner ad below the Region table on the home page, the region pages and the Geocache pages.
• Added Region table to the Region List page along with a banner ad after each.

Thanks for your support!

[firennice]

A note about the advertisements.

Advertising is one of the steps that make a site commercial in the eyes of Groundspeak. Once they are added, they will not allow links from the geocaching web pages, or mention of the site on the pages. (the dgp point links, links to the site etc.)

[Corfman Clan]

A note about the advertisements.

Advertising is one of the steps that make a site commercial in the eyes of Groundspeak. Once they are added, they will not allow links from the geocaching web pages, or mention of the site on the pages. (the dgp point links, links to the site etc.)

There is nothing in the agreements with Groundspeak that would preclude API users from making a buck or two. So, I'm not sure why you think that. At any rate, that's not my understanding and I've never received any communication from Groundspeak to cause me to worry about that.

[gjhiker]

In my opinion having these obnoxious ads on the pages DOES detract from the experience. They are bad enough when along the side of the page but particularly annoying when in the body of the text. I can't believe these garbage ads produce any income. I NEVER click on ads on a web-page much less on ads for "Used & Refurb Computers, Sony VAIO T Series, Military Records Lookup, Colorado Mountain College, Christian Counseling, Leadership Circle, LLC", which appeared on a page I was looking at. I would much rather pay a subscription fee than look at this garbage.

[rocketsciguy]

A note about the advertisements.

Advertising is one of the steps that make a site commercial in the eyes of Groundspeak. Once they are added, they will not allow links from the geocaching web pages, or mention of the site on the pages. (the dgp point links, links to the site etc.)

There is nothing in the agreements with Groundspeak that would preclude API users from making a buck or two. So, I'm not sure why you think that. At any rate, that's not my understanding and I've never received any communication from Groundspeak to cause me to worry about that.

Now that's an interesting conundrum I hadn't thought of that Firennice as a cache reviewer (BlueRajah) would pick up on. Adding advertisements to LonelyCache.com would make it appear to be a commercial site or headed in that direction. Merchandising definitely would make LonelyCache fall into that category. Neither of those violate Corfman Clan's agreement with Groundspeak regarding the use of the API. What would change, though, is that Cache Owners would be in violation of the Geocache Listing Requirements/Guidelines if that have a link on their cache page pointing to a commercial site, e.g. a LonelyCache Point badge made with the Link Maker, should LonelyCache be deemed to be a commercial site.

Granted, when a cache is first published, there is no LonelyCache link to be made, so a reviewer isn't going to see a hyperlink leading to a commercial site. (I suppose the CO could copy an example <a>...</a> code and replace his GC number and cache name in the HTML. I wonder if the site is setup to catch cases where an image is requested for a cache not in the database?) But anyway, the link would typically be added after publication, so a "commercial" link of this sort would only be caught if the cache come to a reviewer's or Lackey's attention.

The relevant guideline is here, or paraphrased:

Section II Paragraph 1.2.4. Solicitation and Commercial Content
...
Commercial content is disallowed. Cache listings perceived as commercial will not be published. A commercial cache listing has one or more of the following characteristics:

• ...
• It contains links to businesses, agencies, commercial advertisers, charities, or political or social agendas.
• It contains the logo of a business or organization, including non-profit organizations.
• It contains the name of a business or commercial product.

The guideline does not prohibit a cache owner from adding a commercial link to a listing after it has been published, but obviously that would be violating the spirit of the law. And Groundspeak retains the right to do whatever they wish with their site and change their terms of agreement on a whim.

I'd like to see the site be able to sustain itself, and I'd like to be able to link to it from my cache pages. It would be unfortunate if those two desires were incompatible....

In my opinion having these obnoxious ads on the pages DOES detract from the experience. They are bad enough when along the side of the page but particularly annoying when in the body of the text. I can't believe these garbage ads produce any income. I NEVER click on ads on a web-page much less on ads for "Used & Refurb Computers, Sony VAIO T Series, Military Records Lookup, Colorado Mountain College, Christian Counseling, Leadership Circle, LLC", which appeared on a page I was looking at. I would much rather pay a subscription fee than look at this garbage.

I have to agree here about the placement. I very much dislike the ads in the middle of the stats, though the vertical banner on the right doesn't bug me too much. I also never click on ads -- neither the annoying irrelevant ones nor the creepy "I know your browsing/search history" ones -- except specifically as a token click like I did when I saw my first ad here. If it were me, I'd place a single unobtrusive banner at the bottom of each page, below the footer, and see what revenue it generates over a reasonable period of time. (Winter is the off-season for most lonely caches, so I'd predict the next three months would have significantly less traffic than May-October.)

I like the idea of LonelyCache branded merchandise too, but if that makes hyperlinks to the site incompatible with the cache placement guidelines, maybe a PBS-like fundraising model would work. Quarterly or semi-annually, set up a donation page (and nagging top-banner a la Wikipedia) for a month or two weeks. People who contribute certain levels of donations can receive certain items or choice of items (probably not a branded tote bag). When the donation period closes, you'd only need to order the quantity you need, distribute once, and hold no quantity on-hand. If it makes sense to order in minimum lot sizes, those extra items can be given away first during the next contribution period. Just an idea...

[gjhiker]

I took a look at the code last night and found an easy 5-minute work-around that completely blocks all of the ads; so it's not an issue for me any more; ads no longer clutter up the page.

[Corfman Clan]

First, is anyone seeing problems with the menu? I am, so it seems the "fix" I put in just made things worse. Please add a note here if you are and what you are seeing.

Second, some comments concerning the ads.

Perhaps this may be construed as greedy, but so far, I have spent several hundred dollars getting this site running and I really would like to not have to spend any more and I wouldn't mind getting some of what I've spent back. That doesn't even account for the hundreds of hours I've spent developing the site either. Now I do enjoy working on the site and am happy to do so but I think it's time to, as Rocketsciguy put it, get the site self sustaining. My thought is that adding some ads is an easy way to do that. Now that the ads are on site, one revenue stream is established and we are one step closer to the site being self sustained.

An advertiser wants the ads he is paying for seen. So obviously, ads that always are seen are worth more to him than ads that may not be seen. An advertiser also wants his ads to cover as big of the target audience as possible. Basically, the advertiser wants to get the most value from his advertising dollar. All this goes back to how the ads are laid out on LonelyCache. If we want to maximize revenue from advertisements, we need to place the ads in positions that are viewed. We also need to work on maximizing the site's veiwership. The more traffic the site gets, the more valuable ad space is on the site. Obviously, there are tradeoffs here. Maximizing ad visibility may have an adverse effect on site traffic while inhibiting ad visibility may increase site traffic while lowering ad value.

So that drove a lot of how the ads are placed on LonelyCache.

I believe the ad space on the right is very good. It utilized previously blank space so it had no impact on the site layout (well, the lists are actually slightly wider which I believe is a good thing). Personally, I think the page looks better with the side ad(s); there is more color and the page doesn't seem so empty.

I thought long and hard about placing an ad space in a list, immediately following the fifth line. It should ad value to the advertiser, since the ad will usually be seen. It's not a large ad (only about 90px high) and is generally at or near the bottom of the screen (depends on your screen size). It is also simple enough to page past to see the rest of the page and I imagine that after a short time, most frequent users will barely notice it. I'm no dummy though, so I did make the row the ad space follows configurable. For example, I can set the row number to 50 and it will be in the middle of most lists or I can set it to 0 and the ad will never be included in the list.

I also added an ad space to the bottom of a list. This actually is a better place for an ad than it may seem. Even though the ad isn't visible when the page is loaded, if the page contains good content, then the user will page down and the ad will be seen plus it doesn't impact the content since it is placed after the content. I think this is a good spot for the ad space.

So that's my thinking on why ads were added to LonelyCache and on where they were placed. The driving force is to create and maximize a revenue stream to help cover operating costs. I'm happy to hear comments about this and what you think and to adjust things for the better. I would like comments based on your thoughts after some use, not on a reaction to the differences. Keep in mind what's trying to be accomplished and why.

I also want to again thank those of you that stepped up and sponsored LonelyCache by gifting a premium membership to the four Geocaching.com worker accounts. Six of you did this, so two of the four accounts are good until June 2014. That generousity is very much appreciated. I know that several others are ready to continue that generousity.

Thank you,
Russell

[Nessmuk]

I thought long and hard about placing an ad space in a list, immediately following the fifth line. It should ad value to the advertiser, since the ad will usually be seen. It's not a large ad (only about 90px high) and is generally at or near the bottom of the screen (depends on your screen size). It is also simple enough to page past to see the rest of the page and I imagine that after a short time, most frequent users will barely notice it. I'm no dummy though, so I did make the row the ad space follows configurable. For example, I can set the row number to 50 and it will be in the middle of most lists or I can set it to 0 and the ad will never be included in the list.

I totally understand your reasons for adding the ads and I am on board with them for the exception of one, the fifth line ad. I think you really need to rethink the ad on the fifth line ad. This ad annoys me very bad, it is a major eye sore, makes the site look cheap and distracts from the flow of the list. The ad makes me want to leave the the page not click on it. I have really enjoyed your site and hope to continue to do so.

[geost4fun]

I have had trouble recently getting the full menu to come up. The profile link comes up but that is all so is has been hard to get to the forum or any of the others. I can usually refresh or just start over from favorites but I can't say I have found a consistent system to make things come up correctly.
A far as the adds go I can fully understand that you want to make the site pay for itself. Sure, I liked the site better without the adds but I haven't spent all my time and money like you have so I really can't complain. I have to agree with the 5 line adds though. I find them very distracting. The others don't bother me at all but I have a hard time keeping focus with the 5 line breaks. It might be and old age thing. Given the time and effort put into this great site I don't feel anyone should be complaining too strongly, but as you have shown in the past you have adjusted the site with the help of construtive criticism and I appreciate all the improvements from those efforts.

[desert dawg]

I am logged when I open the home page as I have checked the remember me box, ( cookies) but I only see the "Profile" link of the menu.
I then cick on my handle link by the Welcome and then I get a full menu >>>

as far as the adds in the 5th line of the stats:
I am in 5th place in the UT Ogden Region and in 5th place in Davis County UT..
when I first seen the add's it looked as my handle was part of the add.. .. I now see a very slight color variation..
It is what it .. If this is what its gonna take to keep the site solvent and running.... but so be it...

[gjhiker]

I still stand by my position that the ads are a major distraction, especially the "in-line" ads. I liked the "clean" design of the page without the distraction of ads. It wouldn't be so bad if the ads were relevant to geocaching, but they aren't. In fact they are just the type of ad that I see as scams. (I've actually blocked all of the ads.) I understand that a lot of time and money has been invested in this project, and we all appreciate it immensely, and that you need some method of making the site pay for itself but, I don't think ads are the way to do it. Why not try asking for donations to support the site? It worked for WikiPedia; they raised more than enough money to cover their costs merely by asking folks to contribute. Another possibility is to ask users to subscribe to the site in order to use it. I expect most of us would be willing to pay a subscription fee to access this wonderful resource.
On another separate point: checking the "Log me on automatically each visit" check-box doesn't work for me. I'm using Safari 5.1.7. I have to log in every time I want to access the Forum although I am logged in automatically when viewing the actual data tables.

[rocketsciguy]

Regarding menus:
Just now went to the home page (not logged in), and no menus. I would have expected the Home and About links to be there.
Logged in, sent to my profile page, and all four expected menu items (Home, Profile, Forum, About) were present.
Went to the Home page, all menu items disappear except Profile.
Clicked around, and observed no consistent pattern. Many pages showed all menus. Some pages only showed Profile -- and on those pages, Refreshing the page would often bring up all menus.

Regarding ads:
I can learn to live with them just fine, and I'm not going to try to disable them being displayed on my machines. Even ads displayed and not clicked are worth something, right? The 5th row ad is unsightly, so I hope having one there is worthwhile because I can see it driving traffic away. The sidebar and bottom banners aren't bothersome at all, but perhaps that's because my eyes and brain are trained to ignore them -- the mid-table ad is jarring, but perhaps that would make it more effective. And I am all for Corfman Clan recovering his initial investment into this site and producing a revenue stream to keep it going, and I trust his judgement on this topic. I would happily pay a modest subscription fee (say, for personalized stats and post/reply priviledges on the forum), or contribute to a fundraiser if he determines that's the route he'd like to pursue.

I just worry a bit about what Firennice talked about, that Groundspeak would identify LonelyCache as a commercial site because of ads, and cache reviewers would stop approving and start archiving caches containing links to the site.

[Corfman Clan]

Okay, it seems having the ad in the list is not going over well at all . I'll update the configuration so that the in-list ad will be suppressed. The ad spaces on the right and at the bottom of lists will still be there.

Concerning the menu, it seems that either the whole menu shows up or either none or the PROFILE part depending on whether you are logged in or not. That's essentially what I've been seeing too. This actually was happening intermittently before and I made a change that was supposed to solve it but it seems to have made it occur much much more frequently. I have an open request for help here, but no response yet. I'm hoping for a real solution but if I don't find one soon, I'll just back the change out.

[Corfman Clan]

...Why not try asking for donations to support the site? It worked for WikiPedia; they raised more than enough money to cover their costs merely by asking folks to contribute. Another possibility is to ask users to subscribe to the site in order to use it. I expect most of us would be willing to pay a subscription fee to access this wonderful resource.

We've thought about having subscribers but that would take some effort to set up. We'd need to develop a way to manage subscriptions along with a way to collect payment. We'd also want to offer something to distinguish the service from non-subscribers and that would take even more development. Adding the ads was straight forward and didn't take much effort. That is why we started there. I hadn't really thought about requesting donations but that option exists too. It would take some development effort too. Not as much as subscriptions, but still some. Personally, I'd feel sort of funny requesting donations and would prefer to offer a subsccripton service.

On another separate point: checking the "Log me on automatically each visit" check-box doesn't work for me. I'm using Safari 5.1.7. I have to log in every time I want to access the Forum although I am logged in automatically when viewing the actual data tables.

I don't know why this may be. We are using phpBB. You might check there to see if others have trouble staying logged in when using Safari.

[Corfman Clan]

The in-list banner ad has been removed. Also, the change that affected the menu has been backed out.

Thank you for your comments and your support.

[gjhiker]

I tried logging into the Forum using Firefox (version 18.0) and have the same problem; checking the "Log me on automatically each visit" check-box doesn't work. I have to log in every time I access the Forum. I don't know any other Mac users that also access LoneyCache so I can't verify that others are having the same problem. It could be some setting on my machine although I haven't noticed the problem on other sites. I do find lonelycache,com and lonelycacheproject,com cookies on my machine but none for phpBB.

[Corfman Clan]

I tried logging into the Forum using Firefox (version 18.0) and have the same problem; checking the "Log me on automatically each visit" check-box doesn't work. I have to log in every time I access the Forum. I don't know any other Mac users that also access LoneyCache so I can't verify that others are having the same problem. It could be some setting on my machine although I haven't noticed the problem on other sites. I do find lonelycache,com and lonelycacheproject,com cookies on my machine but none for phpBB.

phpBB is just the forum software provider we're using here. I really don't know much about it. The cookies probably wouldn't have phpBB in them. I don't know how phpBB manages cookies, logging in, etc. You might just look around on the phpBB website to see if there is discussion on problems staying logged in or not. I understand that isn't very helpful but I'm not sure what else to do except point you to where to look.

[firennice]

A note about the advertisements.

Advertising is one of the steps that make a site commercial in the eyes of Groundspeak. Once they are added, they will not allow links from the geocaching web pages, or mention of the site on the pages. (the dgp point links, links to the site etc.)

There is nothing in the agreements with Groundspeak that would preclude API users from making a buck or two. So, I'm not sure why you think that. At any rate, that's not my understanding and I've never received any communication from Groundspeak to cause me to worry about that.

There are two notes. API allows you to create a product and charge for it. You can can run advertisements, sell your product, etc.

However, it does not buy access to cache pages. A commercial product, or a product for commercial purposes cannot have links, discussions, etc on cache page. DGP, Certitude, and some others had permission because they were not commercial. The owners do not run the sites for profit. Many others are commercial products.

I am just saying be careful and plan an economic model for the site, or you could loose the ability to place links on pages.

[Corfman Clan]

There are two notes. API allows you to create a product and charge for it. You can can run advertisements, sell your product, etc.

However, it does not buy access to cache pages. A commercial product, or a product for commercial purposes cannot have links, discussions, etc on cache page. DGP, Certitude, and some others had permission because they were not commercial. The owners do not run the sites for profit. Many others are commercial products.

I am just saying be careful and plan an economic model for the site, or you could loose the ability to place links on pages.

I understand better what you are saying here. However, I don't follow the "permission" or "ability to place links on pages" aspects of this. LonelyCache isn't placing links on cache pages. The cache pages that link to LonelyCache are not LonelyCache's caches, they are someone elses. It is the cache owner (CO) that is adding the link to his/her cache page so it is the CO that would need permission, not LonelyCache. Likewise, it may be a link to LonelyCache in someone's log. So then it is the one logging the cache that would need the permission, not the CO nor LonelyCache.

[firennice]

It does not effect you as the site owner much. Just people who link. Everyone knows that you cannot control others and what they do.

It just effects people that want to link back to lonelycache.com. Reviewers will have to ask people to remove links to the site. Direct mentions, web links, or the points that you generate to say how many lonelycache points the cache is worth, would not be allowed on cache pages. If you choose to go the commercial route, , then I would remove the script that generates link html for cache pages as it would only cause issues down the road.